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News Brief Military & Law Enforcement

Colt Awarded Contract from U.S. Marine Corps

by G&A Online Editors   |  July 20th, 2012 154

railgunU.S. Marines are getting some brand new sidearms.

The Marine Corps awarded Colt Defense a five-year contract worth $22.5 million to supply the military with the company’s M1911A1 Rail Gun, now designated by the Corps as the M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistol.

The Marine Corps Times reported that the company could supply up to 4,000 pistols, which will be delivered to the military by 2017.

“This is a truly gratifying contract award,” Gerry Dinkel, CEO and president of Colt Defense, told the Hartford (Conn.) Courant. “To have the 1911 selected again for U. S. Forces 101 years after its initial introduction is just an incredible testament to the timeless design and effectiveness of the Colt 1911. Colt Defense looks forward to another great partnership with the Marine Corps as we renew industry production of the military 1911.”

The Colt Rail Gun features Colt’s 80 firing system, which adds a firing pin safety block to prevent discharge if the gun is dropped. The Rail Gun also features more stainless parts, which should prove more adaptable to harsher environments.

  • Rick246


    • John

      So…$5625 per gun?? That is double what any full custom 1911 costs…is anyone out there understanding this??

      • Airman Riley

        government contracts generally are over priced

  • Bob Palombo

    I agree, it is outstanding that we are going forward not only improving our military with better newer fire arms but that means a lot of people with a future to look forward too. All of the parts that go into a gun mean that other people will be getting more work out this. HOO RAH !!!!!!

    • Fox4Alpha

      Hold on pal. First of all only Recon and SOG are getting them and secondly, that works out to about 4600.00 per pistol. Great deal. Why does everyone insist that we go back to 1911 for a 45 ACP pistol? I served in Viet Nam and I saw more friendlies killed with the 1911A1 than enemy. There are tons of good high capacity, double action pistols out there.

      • Bill B

        thank you for your service, and welcome home! i'm an oif vet myself. i say that only so you know i ask the following with the utmost respect: in what way were more friendlies killed by the 1911? negligent discharge, dropping a loaded weapon, WEAPON MALFUNCTION…?

  • Prestonh

    Outstanding that colt is supplying its wonderful 1911 once again. But the paint job and grip are awful.

    • Dennis

      Paint Job? sit down, gee whiz – this is a MODERN weapon based on a timeless proven design. If you prefer retro…go buy an original and quit whining.

    • Wolvie

      No the paint job is AWESOME!

      You see, when we were buying all those evil black guns in their evil black colors because they looked like the evil black guns that soldiers used…the Schumer's, Pelosi's, Boxer's, Bloomberg's and Feinstein's were all quick to point out to everyone how scary they were.

      Now let them say that these guns are scary looking when they are the same color as your grandfather's Camry or Accord.

    • wayne

      Umm, shooting and owning a bevy of Colt 45's all my life , I think it looks great :) . I just hope it holds more than 8 lol.

  • Wolvie

    Guys, just a couple of things…

    1) The INITIAL order is for just over 4,000 pistols. The contract is for up to around 12,000 pistols. So with a $22.5 million dollar contract, that equates to about $1,875.00 a pistol. Not a bad price at all for a specialized 1911.

    2) I freely admit that I'm a biased lover of the 1911 and a card-carrying member of the John Moses Browning fan club…but given that disclaimer, I am so happy to see this new resurgence of the 1911 in military dress.

    Many years ago, the Army used a .45 caliber Peacemaker, and things were good.

    Then, some genius decided to go with a .38 handgun because it was faster to load, faster to shoot and a soldier could carry more ammo. Front line reports showed time and again that a FMJ/ball .38/9mm round just fails to do the job over and over again. The Philippine Moro's demonstrated the error of that decision.

    So the Army went back to the .45 Peacemaker, and things were good. Meanwhile the brass ordered a bunch of tests that were done on livestock, cadavers and a host of other things that would never be allowed today. What they concluded, after testing all available cartridges (including the 9mm Luger) was that the military handgun should not be less than .45 caliber.

    So John Moses Browning gave them the 1911 and the .45 ACP cartridge, and things were good.

    Then, some genius decided to go with a .38 (9mm) pistol because it was faster to load, faster to shoot and a soldier could carry more ammo. Front line reports showed time and again that a FMJ/ball .38/9mm round just fails to do the job over and over again. The Terrorist Insurgents demonstrated the error of that decision.

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    • Winfred

      The 1911 has been faithfully doing its job for 100 Years by giving good stopping power 90 % of the time with a well placed hit in combat and peacetime. When I pickup my 45. I feel well armed and know it will get the job done If I do my part.

      • jiminga

        I'm too old to have served in Vietnam but have a dear friend who did. He had a GI issue .45 that just couldn't stand the high humidity and would often just lock up, requiring him to frequently bang it against a tree to get it going. Today we only wage war in deserts so humidity may not be a problem, but the future may take us elsewhere.

        • old vet

          I never heard of a well maintained .45 locking up from humidity, By well maintained I mean you had to regularly strip and wipe it down and LUBE. Our main problem was there were never enough of them. Most were snatched up by rear echelon types. By the late 60's most of the 1911s were so loose "locking up" was not an issue.

          • jiminga

            From the stories I've heard it was tough enough to get dry socks, much less keep your 1911 "well maintained". The methodology for maintenance included sending weapons to the rear for maintenance while sending "maintained" weapons to the hot areas.

            He also speaks of discarding M14's and picking up AK47's from dead enemies because they were more reliable.

          • old vet

            You heard stories, I was there, enough said.

          • old vet

            P.S. Two things were always possible, Keeping your tobacco dry and always maintaining your personal weapon, even in the worst environment. Dry socks? In Monsoon season? get real.

          • jiminga

            Are you this rude to everyone?

          • old vet

            Sorry, did not mean to be rude, just found your comment astonishing. I guess each unit had it's own policy on weapons upkeep. When I was there they were extremely short on weaponry. It seams they were too busy supplying the ARVN"s to eventually take over (That sure worked out well). Anyway we had a hell of a time even getting spare barrels for our M60's. A decent 1911 was out of the question. One of my squad leaders carried a captured Chinese Tokarev . I also can't fathom a combat troop trusting the maintenance of his weapon to anyone else, our weapon was our survival. As stated by Grumpy, some of us went to the "field expedient" of taking a good captured AK, but the officers in the rear areas quickly made us go back to our 16s. Anyway did not mean to offend anyone. Each unit had it's own problems to deal with. Have fun shootin

          • jiminga

            Apology accepted. My friend has always refused to talk about his Vietnam days, and since I wasn't there I had to take him at his word whenever he decided to talk. He was a radio operator most of the time and took several hits, luckily those hits were to the radio. He did pick up an AK but it was confiscated when he went on R&R.

          • Bearhunter

            I never had a problem with my M16. Cleaned it as often as I could. That rifle was a tack driver and I would have never traded it for a AK47. Maybe I just got a good one.

          • old vet

            I had a very early rifle, kind of "glitchy" never could get it to malfunction on a firebase or in the rear areas. Later I was presented the theory that what I was dealing with was a "wet" bore. The 16 had such a small bore and high velocity that even a small amount of condensation played hell with chamber pressures and thus functioning. They made a plastic cap for the muzzle, but mine had the old three prong suppressor instead of the newer "birdcage" style so they didn't fit, did not occur that it may be an issue. In the rain and vegetation it did not take long to get a little water in a barrel. May not be so, just an idea. Glad you got back. Be Well.

          • Grumpy

            I was in 'Nam. It was the M16s that we swapped for AKs . . .

          • jiminga

            Thanks Grumpy..I stand corrected…the old memory ain't what it used to be.

          • Wolvie

            I'm with you on that, 'Vet.

            Considering that by 'Nam, most 1911's in inventory were at least 40 to 50 years old. The fact that they still worked despite decades of abuse and dubious maintenance is the real story. We won't even get into the fact that up until today, many are still being refurbished.

            If we paid $10,000 per gun way back then…we still would probably have gotten more than our money's worth.

          • Alan_T

            Amen Vet ……. mine never failed as long as long as I took care of it .

            To shamelessly paraphrase :
            Take care of your pistol and your pistol will take care of you !

    • TxMidniteRider

      I read the article in the Marine Corps Times and this contract is for UP to 4,000 1911's and is for "The Marine Corps’ elite special operations and reconnaissance units .."
      It is not replacing the 9mm for the regular Marine.

      That makes these "special built" 1911's $5500.00 per gun. Understand this includes all spare parts, repairs, rebuilding etc etc. The seemingly high price is not just for 1 gun.

      Click on Marine Corps Times and it takes you to the article being quoted.

      "A handgun is like a hospital, you pray you never need one, but if you do, you will want it bad, need it fast and hope its close"

      • Wolvie

        Here's the link…

        Here's the quote:

        "The Close Quarter Battle Pistol is modeled after earlier versions of the semi-automatic 1911 pistol used since the 1980s by Force Reconnaissance units. The contract is for 400 to 12,000 pistols as part of a contract worth up to $22.5 million, according to Marine Corps Systems Command. That means the price per pistol is $1,875. Sources tell us the Marine Corps is ordering 4000 pistols."

        So, once again…contract worth UP TO $22.5 million for delivery UP TO 12,000 pistols.

        End cost…$1,875 per unit.

        • mike

          and for that kind of money you can buy a kimber, a wilson or a les b. ALL much much better than anything colt can build

          • Wolvie

            How so, Mike?

            Do those guns have the same specs as the one listed in the report?

            Since Colt made guns that were in service from 1911 to 1986 and then beyond even that with some specialized units, do these other manufacturers have that kind of track record?

            If they could do it, don't you think they would have applied for the contract the same way Colt did? I'm sure they could find a use for an extra $22,000,000+ just laying around.

            Do you have even a single shred of evidence to back up your claims or was this just an opportunity to bash Colt?

    • ldgrey1963

      Excellent point. I would love to see a double stack COLT, WITHOUT that darned rail.

    • Spike1point5

      It's a great gun, sure. Only thing I disagree with is the comment that a 9mm round fails to do the job. I never had any problem with that. Admittedly I've never yet used a .45 in combat, but my experience has taught me that a properly aimed 9mm round is just as effective as any other.

    • Nelson

      I sincerely hope your clarification of the contract quantities is correct because what you state is not what's in the G&A article:

      "The Marine Corps Times reported that the company could supply up to 4,000 pistols, which will be delivered to the military by 2017"

      That makes these guns $5,625 ea. Even if the contract required 20 magazines per gun, it would still be very expensive.

  • Matt Smart

    Happy for Colt but they could've got a better price and a better gun with Sig Sauer 1911!!!

    • Wolvie

      I'm curious…

      What model of Sig would match the specs of this gun and how would it be better and cheaper?

      Considering that this is a special model, purpose-built and it still is coming in at less than 2 grand per unit, that's a pretty decent price.

      Since Sig doesn't have a model that meets the specs of this one…how do you know it would be cheaper and better?

    • Montanagold

      I think that price includes support.

  • old vet

    The 1911 never totally left the scene. Now with the adoption of this fantastic pistol, the old warrior will soldier on for who knows how long. I had a wild idea I needed a model 92 and bought one. Do not like the fat grip or trigger among other points. I find I can take down plates and generally shoot my 1911s better. With their always in the same spot triggers and much more comfortable grip.

    • Alan_T

      Vet , I couldn't agree with you more buddy !

      Our military went to the Berretta to appease NATO and ……..
      ( in my best Sam Kinison imperssion )


  • 9mm rocks

    sorry but I want more than 8 rounds for a combat side arm.

    • Ken del Valle

      I also like the 9's just fine. I like the high capacity also. It seems that with today's re-ingineered 9mm cartridges the effectiveness of the 9mm has been greatly enhanced.

      FYI, today, 1911's usually take 8+1 for a total of 9.

      When I worked in hard places after my first tour I carried a 9mm High Power and a 1911. Note I said "and' not "or".

      I used what, back then, we called Brazilian mags with 15 round capacity for the HP for a 16+1 capacity.

      Today there are .45 acp pistols that can carry up to 15 rounds. Most are modern platforms but there are a few others are 1911's. Ie. Kimber pro-ten.

      The .40 is a good compromise. 16 +1 in the XD-M of 180 grain Win. (FBI load) is just fine.

      And… as every knows placement is paramount to effectiveness.

    • Alan_T

      9mm , frankly if I need more than 8 rounds I want something more potent than a side arm . A pistol in combat is a stop – gap tool not intended for sustained fire .

    • Gunny

      If you use 9mm you will need more than 8 rounds.

  • Ken del Valle

    I got my first 1911 at age 15 in 1962. In Nam I was a Navy Hospital Corpsman attached first to Navy and then another thirteen months with the Marine Corps. I was issued and carried a 1911. I served in 65,66 and 67. My 1911 never failed me. I practiced with it diligently and kept it well serviced. If anyone's 1911 got stuck due to humidity and rust it was because that person was a, to put it kindly, a knuckle head. In the total of 24 months I was in Nam I used the 1911 in combat twice.

    I was also issued the M-14 and then later the M-16. However, the units I served with had everything from grease guns to M-2 carabines. The 1911 was always a "side arm".

    I stuck with the 1911 for years after my service. Lately, however, there are some exellent .45 acp caliber pistols with greater capacity. The Glock and the XD line and the Smith and several other lines of .45 caliber pistols are just as good, if not better, for fighting.

    There is a difference between a gun and a "fighting gun". The 1911 is among the best fighting guns.

    • old vet

      Ken, very good comments, I am not one of those who believe any troop that has the M9 is in any way handicapped. The Beretta is a fine firearm, and in the military role serves well. Because of restrictions full jacket ammo is used and fmj in any caliber is a handicap. There are probably several models already in production that would serve just as well as this new pistol, however those in charge of procurement decide these things and we humble folk are left to "Marvel at their wisdom".

  • Callum C.

    SIGN ME UP INTO THE MARINES! I was thinking about joining the Navy just like my father did, but since they carry the 92FS and P226, both 9mm, but the Marines is obviously showing a "no bullcrap double tap" idea. BRAVO TO THE MARINES AND SEMPER FI!

    • Alan_T

      I hate to disillusion you Callum , but unless things have changed , you as enlisted personnel probably won't be issued a sidearm at all . Again unless things have changed , you'd have to be a non com or spec ops or some other specialized area where a rifle wouldn't be feasible i . e . tank or helicopter crew . Further more my understanding is you are no longer allowed to purchase and carry personal sidearms .
      Sorry .

  • old vet

    The standard issue rifle, or long arm is always the main weapon. This has been named "Close quarter battle pistol" and as such will probably only see first use by the "Elite". As such, it should prove more than satisfactory.

    • Wolvie

      I'm reminded of the old saying:

      "The purpose of your pistol is so you can fight your way back to your rifle"

      • Alan_T

        Wolvie ……. the purpose of my Government Model of 1911 was and is to make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside !

        From the moment I first held her in hands … it was love , a pure and chaste love that has sustained me over the ( sometimes dark and troubled ) years !

        When I die , as we must all do some day , I am comforted by the knowledge that when I cross over into that Great Armory In The Sky , my beloved will be there waiting for me .

        Yea , though I walk through the Valley of The Shadow of Death , I shall fear no evil . For His staff and my " rod " shall comfort me . Amen !

  • Mack Missiletoe

    Wow! Thought I'd never see it. A 1911 for the military. I am surprised at how much they cost. And now that I think about it, shouldn't all our guns have stainless innards?

    Good news. Makes me rethink the .45 vs 9mm argument… I suppose I'm good with my in-between .40S&W Sig pistol! Haha :D

  • Karl

    It is an improvement over M9. But they would have been just as well served by P226 the Navy already has in inventory. 1911 is OK but it is not Thor's Hammer. A Glock would work for about 1/3 the price, off the shelf. A lot of "cool" factor involved here I think.

    • wayne

      Show me a glock or a sig that will operate in the mud and I will kiss your rear lol. We both ,, know they won't, the Colt ,, will :)

      • Spike1point5

        My Hi-Power never had any issue operating in mud. Nor being subjected to salt spray or any other condition. Personally I'm inclined to believe that if so many SF units are using the 226 Mk 25 that it's going to be robust.

    • Alan_T

      Karl , no offense but , no hand gun is the hammer of Thor .
      Besides if you HAVE TO USE HARDBALL AMMO , which by international law , we do , I'd much rather punch a . 45 calibre hole than a 9 MM one .

  • John

    When I joined the Corps in the 90's, I have to admit that i was a bit disappointed that the 1911 was no longer standard issue. However, I very quickly came to appreciate the smoothness of the action and how fast/easy it was to learn, use, break down and reassemble the M9. The beretta .45 (discontinued now) was even better and would have made a great combat pistol.

  • Richard

    I recently read of (but I don't recall where–too many gun mags) an ex-military handgun instructor who says he likes to–and recommends that his students should also–keep in mind the TOTAL energy output of a handgun. Meaning, a 1911 holding 8+1 rounds of .45 at, say, 525 ft-lbs of energy per shot, carries 4725 ft-lbs of total energy output. An M9 with 15+1 rounds of 9mm at 375 ft-lbs would contain 6000 ft-lbs of total energy.

    Of course, you'd need to adjust the numbers for your personal weapon and ammo of choice, but I thought it was an interesting idea. Others to consider (for me anyway, if not for the Marines): in most self-defense gun fights, most shots miss their target, so the person with the most bullets might win; recoil is an issue for many citizens, so a handgun of any caliber must manage it well; and, of course, PRACTICE with your weapon and defense load, whatever it is, to lessen the chances that the previous two issues put you on the losing end of the battle.

    My nephew is a Marine. I asked how he liked his sidearm (the M9). He said it was "okay," but he wished for a .45 (possibly because he liked the idea that a big hole is better than a small one). I'm sure he'll be delighted with the 1911.

    • John

      Well doesn’t that depend on what type on the rounds are being used; tell me if I’m wrong but wasn’t 230 gr. FMJ RN used for the USGI 1911 before the 9mm. If so the it would be 404 foot-pounds and not 525 foot pounds.

      • Richard

        Yes; I just took a high-average number to make sure I didn't offend 1911 fans. Current defensive .45 ammo in the 165-180-grain range can fly pretty fast, giving up to 600 ft-lbs. And some 9mm can come close to 400 ft-lbs of energy. Depends on the firearm, of course.

        I agree with an earlier post that an M&P or XD-M in .45 would have been a good choice. The XD-M holds 13+1 big bullets and is known for its accuracy and reliability; if the Marines want to "buy American," the Smith M&P 45 holds two more rounds than the Colt and is offered with a thumb safety, if that's a requirement in their manual of arms. Also a fine weapon. And either choice might hold up better in harsh environments due to their polymer frames.
        Not sure that's actually an issue, though.

        Both companies also offer compact models of the same gun that would be great last-resort BUGs, but at that point the Marines probably just use their bare hands! ;-)

        • Anishinabi

          My two sons work at an indoor range and uses various caliber M&P Smiths as rental guns. They are developing a pattern of frame failure, which is not the case with other brands, such as SIG and Springfields. Work them too hard and that's what you get. Also the Berretta M9 or Model 92 when jacked up to .40 cal seems to develop similar issues of frame defects, since it was designed for 9mm.

        • The Shadow

          Smith imports the M&P from Croatia if I'm not mistaken and it is a very good Polymer Pistol.

          Springfield XD's are imported also.

          Glocks would have been the best of all but I think they were looking at BUY AMERICAN FOR A CHANGE, that's what makes then 1875.00 each instead of 800.00 each.

          • Wolvie

            The S&W M&P is NOT imported.

            It's made right here in the US.

            The XD from Springfield is imported from Croatia.

    • Wolvie

      The problem in dealing with abstract numbers like these is that, in reality, their usefulness is questionable. Look at the .22 Long Rifle cartridge. Fired from a relatively short barreled rifle, a 32 Grain, copper plated round nose slug moving at around 1,700 FPS will attain a ft-lbs number of just over 200. So, given the line of thinking you mentioned…carrying 25 rounds of .22 LR is better than carrying a 1911. We know that this, of course, is not the case and I'd like to see the guy who would choose a .22 over a .45 in combat.

      Now, let's take your numbers and apply them to just the 1911…

      It starts off with a number…bad guy is engaged with 2 rounds…now the number is 25% less than you started.

      So, now the gun is magically only 75% as effective?

      Also, the foot-pounds number in itself doesn't mean a whole lot when dealing with the effectiveness of the round in question…especially when dealing with ball/FMJ rounds that tend to zip through soft targets and not dump energy. Also, there is effectively no magical Hydrostatic shock with handgun rounds…you need rifle velocities to achieve that sort of damage.

      Now, let's look at the rounds in question…the 9mm ball round is much more pointed than the blunter 45 ACP round. This leads to the round making an even smaller permanent cavity than a flatter nosed round of the same caliber.

      Finally, let's forget all the nonsense laboratory stuff and go with actual, documented results. The 9mm pistol cartridge is underperforming in the field. This was discovered by our own GI's who were on the receiving end of the round in the trenches of WWI and the battlefields of WWII. This was hardly a surprise since that exact cartridge was tested back in 1901 along with other available cartridges by the US Military. Fast forward a few years, and our soldiers keep documenting that the 9mm pistol cartridge in failing to stop the bad guys time and time again. Upon adopting the 9mm, the NYPD originally went with ball ammo for duty issue. Extreme failures to stop were so prevalent that they now use Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P.

      Forget theory and look at physics. There is no arguing that when dealing with pistol rounds, you need to make a bigger hole, with a bigger permanent cavity and penetrate deeply enough to hit the important things. The bigger the better. When you move to a cartridge that has less than half the frontal surface area of the one you are replacing and is designed to make an even smaller permanent cavity than other bullets of the same caliber…you don't need a PhD to figure out it's probably a bad choice.

      For the civilian, using modern ammunition designed for maximum expansion and deep penetration, the 9mm is a fine choice. When dealing with military issued ball ammo as your only choice, the 9mm underperforms.

      • Richard

        I appreciate your informative reply; thank you.

        Great point. I agree with you; I wasn't aware that the military issued round-nose 9mm ammo instead of hollow-points–if I were a soldier, I'd want my handgun ammo to be one of the fine defensive loads we have available, whether shooting 9mm or .45.

        My original post meant to offer the total-energy theory as simply an interesting idea. Since it came from an ex-military man, maybe that gave it more credence in my mind. I tried to imply that it might have some implications for us civilians. I assumed defensive ammo all around, regardless of caliber.

        Obviously, bigger holes are better, and a .45 makes a bigger hole. But talking tissue damage now, would you choose, say, 10 rounds of .45 ball, or 15 rounds of 9mm hollow? I think I'd take the 9mm in that case. Since I don't shoot like a Marine, I need all the bullets I can get!

        • Wolvie

          Speaking from a civilian standpoint, the short answer to your question:

          I would feel adequately armed with either choice.

          The slightly longer answer:

          I would feel adequately armed with either choice, as I do with even a "lowly", 6-shot, 357 revolver, but I might be a little more concerned with over-penetration with the 45 ball.

          The long answer:

          I would feel adequately armed with either choice, as I do with even a "lowly", 6-shot, 357 revolver, but I might be a little more concerned with over-penetration with the 45 ball. However, the 45 platform is what I am constantly training with, is what I shoot the best, is what fits my hand the best and is what I am totally confident in.

          And, if you will permit me a moment of levity…I know the 9mm may expand…but the 45 will never shrink…

          • Richard

            Ha, ha…beautiful! And worth consideration.

      • Anishinabi

        If 9mm was a great round, the cops would not have dropped it for the .40 SW. There were too many incidences of them having to pump 14 rounds into a perp and being accused of being cowboys. Some spurn the Coast Guard and others for using the .40, but it is a better choice than 9mm parabellum. I do concelead carry 9mm, but only for size and weight of the weapon, and as you say for a civilian it is a fine choice, but not with ball ammo.

    • Steven Wilson

      The Marines have a saying that addresses your point. ONLY HITS COUNT! Every Marine is taught to be proficient with his weapon (usually a rifle). Give a Marine a pistol to carry and he will quick become a dam good pistol shooter.

      Semper Fi!

    • Mike Tabb

      One round of 525 ft lb of energy will not equate to the fact that another pistol has 6000 total ft lbs at 375 ft lbs per shot. Thats using math to make a point that's not valid.

  • dlute

    I wonder why FNH's fabulous FNX-45 didn't make the cut? A modernized 1911 with 15 round capacity of .45acp. Plus they already supply the US military with 70% of their small arms. Just wondering!

    • Wolvie

      It's an interesting point, dilute.

      The one thing I have noticed over the years (and reading through 1,000's of pages of DoD memo releases) is that there seems to be a lack of ANY polymer guns in the running.

      If I had to guess…and I do preface this comment by stating it is my GUESS…I think that the expected service life of the firearm might keep the polymer guns out of the running for now.

      Look at the type of life we are getting out of our firearms. Over 100 years for the 1911. Another 50 years from the AR platform. Coming up on 30 years for the M9. I'm not sure (and again, this is just a guess/conclusion/hypothesis on my part) if we can effectively rely on the longevity of the polymer gun when there are no examples of standard, service guns that have been out long enough to make an accurate analysis.

      We all know, intimately, what metal does, how it can be graded, how it can be checked and what type of service life can be expected. We can even effectively treat metal during regular maintenance to prolong its life. What we know about polymers is…well…al lot and not much at the same time. Is a Glock frame the same as an XD frame or a HK frame or an M&P frame on a molecular level? Is there a standard, researchable formula for which secret mix is best? Are they all using the same formula? How will it stand up to constant refurbishing? What happens to the polymer after years and years of exposure to solvents, sweat, dirt, temperature changes, etc.? Will it get brittle like some of the plastics used in automobiles?

      Again, I'm only guessing and I have no proof…but I think we need to have the polymer frames around a lot longer to truly determine what we can expect after years and years and years.

      • ldgrey1963

        Wolvie, I have heard that poly guns should be kept from UV exposure. I carry a Para frame with Colt series 80 slide (custom built) with 16 + 1 of .45 ACP. I wish COLT would make a stainless double stack 1911 then my choice would be ONLY COLT.

      • dlute

        Wovie, good point on the polymer issue.

      • brucebos

        All the stocks on M16/AR15 rifles have been polymers for 50 years. What has been the rate of wear or chemical degradation of those materials? Have the services' armorers or manufacturers researchers been tapped to provide data on polymer long term performance?

        • Wolvie

          Well, I have no idea, Bruce. As I said, It was my suspicion.

          Also, the stocks on the rifles are a swappable item, are not made of the same polymer as the pistol frames and may not be considered the core of the design (while the entire frame of the pistol would absolutely be considered the core of the firearm).

          Again, I'm not trying to spread rumors or claiming to have inside information. I'm trying to be clear that in looking at the issue, this could be the case. It's just one conclusion I've made based on the evidence at hand.

          Oh, one last thing…not sure if it's relevant…

          I do know there early reports of the M-16 stocks prematurely breaking under use. Now, I don't know if that was true or if that was addressed by a different polymer formula. Honestly, I don't know.

          • old vet

            Don't know about the newer 16's, but I know the old ones stocks were a black plastic shell over some sort of white plastic "foam". Saw it when one of our guys got impatient with an unco-operating prisoner and tried to "butt stroke" him. Pieces of white plastic flew everywhere and he had a buffer unit dangling in his face. The poor Viet had a headache, and fell in line.

    • mike tabb

      Just like Berettas requirement to move 33% of it's manufacturing capacity to the US, I'm guessing FNH was not willing to meet that requirement. The cost to do that probably put their bid out of the ball game.

  • Erin

    9MM Rocks, I carry a Taurus PT145 Millennium Pro, has a 10 round mag and one in the tube, weighs just over a pound fully loaded. I think thats enough stopping power for me and beats the hell out of a 9mm. Even though I have a Ruger LC9 for back up.

    • Lazarus

      ~ Erin, I have the same piece…in .45 cal. OMG…it rocks!

    • mike tabb

      It's pretty clear that most of the world including the US military has discovered that in the hitting and killing department, the 9mm doesn't come close to a competition with the 45acp. Glad you enjoy your 9mm.

  • Peter

    Are they mad? Did anyone cost out the money being spent on 4,000 pistols? it comes to over $5600 a pistol. The 1911 is a tested and blodded weapons system. It does what it is supposed to do; put the enemy down. It did it in World Wars I & II, Korea and Viet Nam; and the cost was much less.

    • Wolvie

      You obviously missed the message here that said it was an INITIAL delivery of about 4,000 pistols with an expected contracted amout of 12,000.

      That means the cost is around $1,875 a pistol.

      If they get even half of the service life they got out of the original run and you consider that it's a purpose built 1911, then the price is pretty good.

      • Eric

        Where does this 12,000 number come from? I'm reading other sites on this and all say 4,000 to be delivered and at $5600 per, Marines got ripped off. When Colt lost the patent to the M4 and Remington took over, the true cost of the M4 came out. I don't remember exactly what it was, but Remington will be producing them at 1/3 the costs. Colt was screwing the Gov't. Well, the Gov't agreed to be screwed actually. Waste of tax payer money.

  • Alexander

    Great gun. I love the 1911 design but there are far better choices that are lighter with more ammo capacity. The 1911 is definitely a classic but I'm afraid we've come a long way to go back. O well hope our boys enjoy these new tools.

  • joisster

    Well that is enough of BS talking about bullets and grips For my Vietnam vets nothing but respect and gratitude my own brother name is on panel 65N. My self 21 years of service CPO (FMF) USN . Now my 2 cents You know that my young Sergeants and Lance Corporals will never see this weapons down to company level. This weapons will be eye candy for captains and above mainly for look factor. Get real this is a waste 22millions of tax payers money just for show I rather have 22 millions put into the barracks and facilities for our marines.

    • Alan_T

      Too true joisster .

  • Shawn O'Loughlin

    The Colt Series 80 Firing Pin safety? Really? Why? I thought these weapons were meant to be issued to trained professionals, not college students and lawyers. Just more parts that can cause malfunctions when re-installed improperly to make liberal-left lawyers feel (somewhat) more comfortable with the weapon.

    As far as higher capacity, as mentioned by another poster…. the 1911A2 variants being produced hold 14+1 rounds of .45ACP. Kind of a handful, but then again so is the Beretta. A standard Colt pre-70 type with decent night sights is all that is needed and should be issued to every soldier.

    • Wolvie

      I think having the drop-safety feature on a battlefield firearm is a good idea.

      • Alan_T

        Yeah , me too Wolvie . Especially considering the fact some of these boys ( and girls ? damn ….. things change ) have never seem a pistol , much less fired one before .

      • Shawn O'Loughlin

        The height from which it takes to make a pre-70 type 1911 discharge when dropped is higher than shoulder height and these tests are done on concrete, not dirt or mud. Doesn't seem worth it to me. Adopting a weapon with extra mechanical safeties to guard against that one-in-a-million chance that it COULD "go off" is kind of silly. Do we need a firing pin safety on the M4? Fortunately, these things can be removed before going into really bad situations. I hope the soldiers being issued these weapons do.

        • Wolvie

          You mean pretty much the exact same height you would get from inside the cab or in the back of a truck, or atop a fighting vehicle or from a fall halfway down a set of stairs?

          Yeah, that couldn't happen in combat. What was I thinking?

          • Alan_T

            Oh God no Wolvie …… THAT would never happen ! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    • clearcut1

      I couldn't agree more. The 80 series has earned a fair bit of contempt for a reason.

      • Shawn O'Loughlin

        Violates the KISS principal.

        • Wolvie

          As does the grip safety…

          and the thumb safety…

          and the barrel link…

          and the longer, pivoting slide stop…

          and the removable barrel bushing…

          Doesn't all that violate the KISS principle?

          • Shawn O'Loughlin

            Original design. I'm sure JMB would've included the link-less barrel design as he did on the High Power if he had the inclination to continue work on the 1911. it is the 1911's weakest link, pardon the pun. I like the barrel bushing, great way to change the tolerances at the front end of the barrel quickly and easily. Once the weapon had the bugs worked out there was no reason to go looking for bugs that didn't exist, as a FPS.

          • Wolvie

            Technically, the thumb safety was not part of the original design.

            It was only added after at the behest of the military who disagreed with JMB that the Grip Safety was enough.

            But again, you may like it regardless of the fact it might violate KISS and that's OK. Which was kind of my point in the first place.

          • Alan_T

            The War Department insisted on the those safety's because of the ( justifiable at the time ) concerns about mounted Calvary ( horse , not armored or air ) firing one – handed from the saddle .

            That's also why JMB added the the lanyard ring( s ) to the mainspring housing and the magazine bases .

          • Alan_T

            No offense Shawn , but the Hi Power wasn't really Browning's design , he died shortly after he stared working on it .
            Sauvengion ( I know I'm not spelling his name right ) was the one who did most of the work on it for FN .

          • Shawn O'Loughlin

            It was my understanding that Sauvengin (?) only finished the pistol that JMB had mostly designed. My bad.

      • Wolvie

        Mainly from custom gunsmiths and competition target shooters who were unable to get a competition-crisp trigger break like you could from the Series-70's because the firing pin block is worked by the trigger (as opposed to the grip safety in a Swartz-style block…like on a Kimber).

        All pretty much irrelevant for a combat arm.

    • Alan_T

      Trained proffesionals , huh Shawn ?

      Im not sure what it is now , but Army used to be a 2 year hitch , Marines and Navy 4 years .I think Air Force was 4 also .

      You think you're going to turn out " deadly ninja shadow warriors " in that amount of time , especially considering the IQ 's of some of these people ? Some of them , you're lucky if they can get their boots on the right feet !

      Before somebody starts jumping up and down , I'm NOT disrespecting ANY branch of the Military …. I'm just stating a cold , hard fact .

      Well ….. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you never saw basic training from the inside Shawn .


      • Alan_T

        P . S .

        I don't know about now , BUT , that old Bill Murry movie " Stripes " ……. REALLY didn't used to be too far off the mark !

      • Shawn O'Loughlin

        Not that wild Alan, most of my family has been in but not myself. I was giving the armed forces the benefit of the doubt. I've known average to smart people who've served and MANY dumb-asses that have been in as well. They are supposed to be trained professionals, but are mostly trained to do one job and nothing more. Sad.

  • clearcut1

    Series 80? What a crock! There's a reason that the 70 is more popular amongst custom makers. That firing pin blocker serves no good purpose and just gums up the works.

  • bhp9

    And so the .45 myth lives on. 'Really this is a bad choice for many reasons. Now the U.S. will have to stock two calibers of pistol ammo. The .45 is really on of the very worst of military cartridges. Tests by the Army in 1945 showed it was so anemic it actually bounced off of old style military helmets at only 35 yards while the 9mm went right on through at up to 125 yards. Now that means the .45 would get you killed at ranges over 35 yards.

    FN's 5.7 which is a .22 was designed to penetrate the new Kelvar Helmets as well as many styles of body armor. The Marines need to move into the 21st century and also get a pistol that fits Women's soldiers hands as well. The 1911 fails in this respect as well.

    • Eric

      .45 ACP has never left the supply system. PLus, don't forget the HK SOCOM pistol Navy Seals use/used.

    • mike tabb


  • bhp9

    I seriously wonder if Colt will build these pistols with the same brittle junk MIM cast internal parts that it uses in its civilian guns.

  • G.E. Diego

    This is a classic example of why the Pentagon budget needs to be cut, $5,000+ for a colt pistol???

    • Shawn O'Loughlin

      Actually the Pentagon budget needs to be tripled to buy more and better weapons….. the money can and should come from worthless areas of government spending, like welfare spending, printing every government form in twenty different languages, etc.

    • Alan_T

      G . E . , no offense but , I suggest that you read some of the other posts …….. it's NOT $ 5 ,000 plus per pistol .

  • bhp9

    In the 1980's Pistolero Magazine should have put an end once and for all in regards to the .45 myth. They went to Mexico to get around animal cruelty laws and shot barn yard pigs which most medical people know have autonomies much like humans and I might add have much better manners. Pisolero used the .38, .357mag, 45acp and 9mm at point blank range and found no difference whatsoever in killing power. The pigs when hit with the 9mm jumped higher and squealed louder. When hit with the .45 they did not get knocked down or spun around like a top and they did not disappear in a red puff of mist either.

  • bhp9

    When you consider the higher capacity and easier re col of the 9mm or FN 5.7 and the smaller grip circumference of the 21st century plastic pistols it makes no sense to stick with the 1911 .45acp. My hunting experience with the .30 Mauser, 9×19 and 45acp resulted in the .45acp coming in dead last in the killing department. The .45 acp worked with the 230 grain bullets at very close range of a few yards and failed at ranges beyond 25 yards. Lighter weight bullets failed even at point blank range due to lack of penetration. The .45 acp is a dud round pure and simple and the 1911 needs to be retired once and for all, its an obsolete dinosaur if there ever was one both in design and caliber.

    • Airman Riley

      CQC is usually not 25yards or farther.

  • Wolvie

    Every site I read, including the DoD contract issued information reports, all report 4,000 initial orders, up to 22.5 million and up to 12,000 pistols.

    Ironically, the Marine Corp Times is the only place I saw they neglected to mention the last parts.

  • Wolvie


    About 10 years ago, I distinctly remember you stating the exact same nonsense on The High Road. I also remember you spamming the boards with unsupported nonsense until you were taken to task by everyone else there who absolutely proved your points were not valid and most likely, made up.

    Then, rather prove otherwise, you left…never to be seen there again and did the same thing on other boards. Of course, the result was the same: You Spam – You're Challenged – You Make Things Up – You're Called Out – You Disappear.

    How about we speare everyone here the grief and you just go to the last part…which you are bound to do anyway as history proves.

    Anyone else who doubts this can Search "BHP9" on The High Road and see pages of this guy making the same wild claims and getting owned. I'd post the actual links, but the auto-censor won't allow it.

    But I have to admit…you do win the prize for longest attempt at trolling the exact same thing for almost 10 years…

    • Wolvie

      To save everyone the brain aneurism that would result from reading BHP9's multiple posts…I'll summarize (since I dealt with it before…I'm somewhat immune)…

      A gun magazine (that no longer exists and most either never heard of or don't remember) made up of of dubious writers (that no longer work and never really worked anywhere else) did a test back in the 80's (allegedly). They posted their findings only in their own magazine…but the results were never peer reviewed, never duplicated, no one had access to the raw data and there was no actual, recorded, verifiable data or even proof that the tests even took place.

      The nature of their findings went against every single recorded, reviewed and authenticated test ever done before or after they posted their "results". Additionally, their results go against the normal physics model of terminal ballistics, emergency room reporting and prior wound and ballistics research.

      What the results DID support was a theory put out at the time that was in support of very lightweight, fast moving bullets. This report, since discredited by every single ballistics authority, firearms manufacturer, ammunition manufacturer and every government testing facility was called, The Firearms Incapacitation Index. The purpose was to assign a number to the "stopping power" of a bullet. Their tests actually showed that a 38 special round nose had more stopping power than a 45 hollow point. No…I'm not kidding.

      It should come as no surprise that the writers of this rag were huge proponents of jthis junk science and (surprise, surprise) their data matched the since discredited junk science of the report they loved so much. (Who would have thunk it?)

      You want simple proof other than the white coat and propeller hat yammering? Easy…

      Would you use the rounds he is talking about to take down a full sized deer? Real simple, folks. If what you propose to use can't take down a 140 pound deer…good luck expecting it to take down a pissed off 250 pound man.

      Pistol ballistics is not magic. All pistol cartridges are underpowered. All pistol cartridges are best only at short range. All pistol cartridges lack the velocity to create "hydrostatic" shock or damage beyond the diameter of the permanent wound cavity. No handgun can knock someone off their feet, because Newton's Law proves that it would knock down the shooter as well.

      There is only two ways to stop a person with a pistol shot. The psychological stop (meaning they surrender or stop because they don't want to get shot or the because it hurts) and the physiological stop (meaning you either broke bones that prevent mobility, you hit the central nervous system or you created enough damage to the blood vessels to cause sufficient drop in blood pressure to cause unconsciousness).

      Big, deep holes in the human body work better than small-diameter or shallow holes. Plain and simple.

      • Alan_T

        Wolvie …….. I have a list of people we can use to try out the big hole theory on ……. just sayin' … if you want to .

        • Wolvie

          Nah, I still insist on my rubber chicken method.

          Oh and Alan…remember about a week ago I told you that Wednesdays were Keyboard Kommando day and Fridays were liberal troll day?

          I really wish I could be that accurate with the right 6 numbers every week…

          • Alan_T

            Say Wolvie ….. WE could be Keyboard Kommandos ! ………..

            We could have really cool call names and have a secret handshake ! We could camp out in my backyard and when Creepy and BHP9 come by trying to sell us naked pictures of their mom again … we could throw water bombs at them !

            Yeeeeeeeeeeah …. COOL !

          • Alan_T

            Wolvie ….. I've got bad news . My mom says we can't camp out in my backyard any more .

            She said that Mrs . Weatherspoon called her because she caught Creepers eating his boogers again while he was doin' something with those naked pictures of his mom he always lookin' at …. and he lied on us and said we told him to .

            Then Mom said that all the weatherspoon's are " in bread " ( I guess that means they got money ….. I dunno ) and you 'n me need to carefull 'cause Jon's dad / uncle just got outta the state hospital again .

            I'll be back but I gotta go tell vet not to eat any more sandwiches on account the Weatherspoons being in the bread !

  • Durwin

    A cousin – in – law, unless he has retired, is a LT with Memphis PD and a Vietnam Vet. He once put it rather pointedly, regardless of the handgun in use, if it takes more than 6 rounds, you are in serious trouble.

    • Alan_T

      Yep , you'd better re – think your position .

  • Eric

    Nobody's mentioned the point in the article that the first guns will be delivered in 2017. Really? 4 years to build, ship, and equip a soldier. I know govt is slow (I'm a fed too) , but GEEZ, that's rediculous…especially for a 100 year old design that Colt's been manufacturing for years!

    • Eric

      Oops. Supposed to say 4+ years instead of 4. My math is really not that bad. :)

      • Alan_T

        We all forgive you Eric ! HAHAHAHAHAHA

    • Carry 45 to work

      It's probably not as much a Colt logistics issue as it is an issue of when the current contracts expire, etc. This is a contract for the next round of handgun purchases; it doesn't mean the Marines are going 5 years without a sidearm.

  • bhp9

    Two points. Jan Libourel the retired gun writer researched the .45acp myth and found no U.S. Army evidence whatsoever that stated the .45 Revolver rounds used in the Philippines killed any better than the .38 cal. revolvers also then in use. The .45acp never even made it to the Philippines until the last year of the war and by then the fighting was over anyway.

    The famous Thompson tests in the early 1900's when looked at from a non prejudiced viewpoint actually started to prove the smaller calibers i.e. the .30 Luger and the 9×19 were killing 1200 pound steers every bit as good as the .45 caliber revolvers that Thompson used. He then suspended shooting the smaller calibers because it became obvious that his big bore theory was all wet.

    • Wolvie

      You still here?

      You may go now.

    • TxMidniteRider

      I guess the FBI tragedy in Florida involving 2 armed suspects and 8 FBI agents armed with 38 special, 9mm S&W 39, and .357 loaded with FBI ammo (all are 9mm projectiles at approx 1000 FPS) did not happen. Michael Platt was struck in the torso with 2 9mm Para rounds(ME stated 1 of the hits would have been fatal in a few minutes), after being hit he then was able to return fire and kill an agent.

      The FBI then knew that in practical application the 9mm/38 was not suitable for street use so they commissioned the now famous study and adopted the 10mm/.40 cal.

      The vast majority of the police departments around the nation dropped the 9mm in favor of the 40 cal.

      The 40 185 grn ball ammo approximates the 45 acp.

      So your argument of the 9mm superiority to the 40 or 45 does not hold any credence. If you compare ball to ball ammo the poor 9mm is sadly lacking. If you compare high performance/high power loads, again the little 9 does not compare with the larger calibers.

      So as Wolvie stated, please go now.

      • Wolvie

        Interesting you brought up the Miami-Dade shoot out, Tex…

        That one incident proves out a point I have been saing for many, many years…

        People focus on shot placement…and for good reason. Shot placement is very, very important. But it isn't everything.

        Bullet/cartridge selection is just as important as shot placement. The bullet has to do its job ifI do my job in putting them in the right spot.

        In the Miami-Dade incident, one of the (now deceased) agents perfectly placed a round into the torso of the bad guy that was inline to hit the heart squarely.

        Except, the bullet failed to penetrate and do its job and never reached the heart. This was early on in the fight and had the perfectly placed round done its job, the fight would have been over before a single agent would have lost his life.

        This is why the new FBI protocol requires more than 12" of penetration (14 to 16 being optimal) even after the bullet passes through barrier objects in the testing.

        Oh and…

        …wait a second…

        I'm sorry BHP9, I didn't realize you were still standing there.

        You may go now.

        • TxMidniteRider

          Exactly Wolvie, the suspect in question was Michael Platt and he took a total of 12 rounds before he went down.
          He took 2 9mm would be fatal later rounds to his center mass, 1 entered under his armpit (perfect shot placement) and the other was the round you wrote about, it was center mass (again perfect shot placement). He continued on his path with his 223 Mini 14 and killed the agent that shot him, then continued on, shot and severely wounded 2 more agents, then killed another agent before he succumbed to the 12 rounds of 9mm and 38 rounds he was hit with(several were fired and the end at point blank range)
          Toxicology tests showed that the astounding abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gun shot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were completely drug- and alcohol-free at the time of their deaths.

          This was not a "simulated" test, it was real street combat and proves beyond any normal persons doubt(certainly the FBI), small caliber rounds are for very close last ditch defense and should never be used for a "Combat" weapon.

          The .45 ACP may not be the "perfect" answer for the role but it sure as hell is better than the 9mm bareleybellum.

          Oh and loved the Tombstone quote!

          I'm your Huckleberry
          Service Connected Disabled Veteran
          O-3, USAF, EWO/BN, B-52D/H, 7th Bomb Wing Heavy, SAC. 1975-79

          "To err is human, to forgive is against SAC policy"

          • Alan_T

            You're on the money Rider !

          • bhp9

            Another fact was that what ended the shootout was one shot from a .38 snub nose revolver, a caliber that is very similar in ballistic performance to the 9mm. So do we now conclude the one shot stop by the .38 was just a anomaly, well of course, because it does not fit in with the big bore philosophy now does it.

          • TxMidniteRider

            FYI it was not a "one stop shot".

            I know about the incident as I was a Sunrise/Davie FL, Police officer at the time.

            Platt and Matix had crawled to the now dead Agent Doves car and were about to escape when Agent Edmundo Mireles (severely wounded in the left arm by a 223 round) crawled up to the door of the car and at point blank range (2 feet) he emptied a S&W 66 loaded with 125 gr JHP +P 38 sp. into both suspects finally killing them.

            Matix was shot a total of 6 times with 9mm caliber rounds and Platt was hit a total of 12.

            I quoted this instance as it resulted in an exhaustive study done to find a better alternative to the 9mm caliber.

            Now you are stating a 357 MAGNUM is a "small caliber". We are talking what the MILITARY is allowed to use, but if they were allowed to use the High power/high performance modern 45 ACP rounds (180 grn JHP loaded to 1150 FPS) the power difference to a hot 9mm is night and day.

            The 40 was chosen over the full house 10mm due to recoil and grip size. The 40 cal is a 10 mm and duplicates the "Ideal" round that was discovered during the FBI tests.

            To finish this thread as I am not wasting any more time on this, I have been involved in street shootings and have seen first hand how ineffective the 9mm ball ammo is, or for that matter all ball ammo.

            I shall agree to disagree with you sir and will hope you never have to find out, and I will continue to carry my 1911 on duty and my S&W Shield 40 off.

            Have a great day


      • bhp9

        You really do not know much at all about the Miami shootout. The real facts are that the cops were using 115 grain bullets in the 9mm which actually did what they were supposed to do they expanded violently without excess penetration. The failure that was most alluded to was when one of the perps was shot through the side of his arm, the bullet then penetrated all the way to 1/10 of an inch of his heart. The proper bullet for the 9mm since the end of WWI has been the 125 grain slugs.

        Lets face facts no pistol bullet can be counted on to work 100 percent of the time but when the big calibers fail, the big bore boys simply say that the perp was one tough customer but when the smaller calibers do the same they get condemned as anemic.

        Rather than switch to the proper bullet the FBI went searching for the miracle caliber, it doesn't exist and never will.

  • Alan_T

    Wolvie ….. I've got bad news . My mom says we can't camp out in my backyard any more .

    She said that Mrs . Weatherspoon called her because she caught Creepers eating his boogers again while he was doin' something with those naked pictures of his mom he always lookin' at …. and he lied on us and said we told him to .

    Then Mom said that all the weatherspoon's are " in bread " ( I guess that means they got money ….. I dunno ) and you 'n me need to carefull 'cause Jon's dad / uncle just got outta the state hospital again .

    I'll be back but I gotta go tell vet not to eat any more sandwiches on account the Weatherspoons being in the bread !

  • bhp9

    The concept of the smaller caliber i.e. whether it be rifle or pistol has proven that the smaller caliber that can most often be propelled at much higher velocities kills all out of proportion to its size. The yawing of the .22 service rounds of both the U.S. and Soviet Union have many times proven that this often does tremendous internal damage. This also happens with the .30 Mauser and .30 Tokerov. A recent example several years ago happened in Massillon, Ohio when a cop was shot in the buttocks with a .30 Tokerov. The very high velocity and superior penetration because of its small diameter caused it to glance upwards through the body after hitting bone. The internal organs were blasted into jelly killing the Cop instantly. Now this just does not happen with slow poke rounds like the .45acp. I ask you would you want to take on an enemy solider or perp wearing body armor with the 5.7 FN pistol round or the .45 acp that bounces off even old style WWII helmets as shown in the excellent book "The Englis Diamond". I think the answer is obvious.

  • bhp9

    For those of you who actually read books this years 2013 Gun Digest has an excellent article on why the .357 magnum killed off the .41 Remington magnum. Here we have actual proof from police use of the .357 magnum when used versus the police us of the .41 Remington. Higher velocity, deeper penetration, more explosive expansion and lower recoil which enabled the cops to shoot more accurately with the .357 simply drove coffin nails into the idea of the ideal big bore police round.

  • bhp9

    The same thing happened after the Miami shootout. The ideal miracle auto caliber was then hailed as the 10mm. It destroyed pistols, kicked too much and the average police officer because of the recoil could not shoot it accurately enough, ditto years earlier when they tried the .44 magnum. Now comes the .40 S&W the next miracle caliber. Its high recoil, lower capacity and its use in small frame auto's that were designed around the 9mm cartridge simple proved that the service life was short because of the heavier recoil of the .40. Then came the spectacular explosions when using factory ammo with the 180 grain bullets.

  • bhp9

    What caused it? The cartridge was to short to safely load the heavier slugs in it at maximum velocity. When the cartridge suffered bullet set back with no air space in it due to the use of the heavy bullets they got detonation. Combat Handguns magazine reported a Glock, Browning High Power and a Ruger all exploded when using the original hot 180 grain factory ammo which has now since been loaded down to anemic levels to create more air space in the cartridge. Now everyone seems to be using the lighter weight bullets for higher velocity and lower pressure, and of course way less penetration to the vital organs. Big bore calibers are not Miracles and they often create many more problems than the problems they attempt to solve.

    • old vet

      Just keeps going, and going, and going………!

      • Wolvie

        Yeah, the idiot has been copy/pasting the same nonsense for 10 years now.

        I guess he feels that if he keeps writing he exact same thing over and over, eventually it will be true.

    • JMB

      BHP can't handle +p, likewise my baby eagle is not suppose to be fed them either.

  • JMB

    Now when the blue meanies get shot, they'll know it. Sgt. York killed many meanies with his.

  • Tmach

    The 1911 is a classic badass gun but if I had to choose a backup caliber I would want something in 357 Sig… more powerful than 9mm, 40 and 45 and manageable recoil, high capacity and plenty of stopping/penatrating power… I think its the best all around round. If you don't know whats up look it up!

  • LiberaltarianND

    What the hell do I know. I wouldn't want to face off against a determined US Marine armed with either the M9, 1911, or anything else! Our Marines just might have made a better choice with the Colt. And will it have the Series 80 or an improved firing pin-blocking design? Will they be stuck with 7 rounders, or be able to use 8 or even 10 round extended mags? Only the Marines and their armorers will know for sure. If they need spare parts (the aftermarket is chockablock full of 'em) in a hurry American suppliers can serve up stuff muy pronto. Give our fighters excellent tools and they will give us results we can be grateful for. Total cost projection per weapon does seem a mite high, though.

  • Spike1point5

    Nice gun for sure, and if you ask me it's a step up from the M9, never did like Berettas. On the other hand, I know that this is a blasphemous to say on a gun forum, but I've never really been such a big fan of the M1911 either *braces self for scorn*.

    Personally, I think that the P226 Navy Issue is the best available military sidearm. Used the Browning for years, loved it and it's still a great gun, but even a short while with the P226 has convinced me that it's the best gun for the job.

    It's got one of the crispest SA pulls I've experienced, second only to the aforementioned Browning. I tested it, runs perfectly when fired dry. Not a hitch, making it perfect when for whatever reason you can't lube up properly. I hear the Glocks can do that but I've not tried it, nor found any other gun that does that. SIG have an EXCELLENT reputation for producing accurate weapons, a huge number of SF units around the world use it and I'm inclined to a) trust their judgement and b)trust my own findings. Costs are much and such the same, I'm honestly not sure why Colt got the contract.

    I just assume someone higher up the food chain knows more than I do, seems like the most logical explanation. But I'm also open to the idea that I'm just smarter than everyone else :P

  • Daniel Dravot

    Always been a .45 ACP and Colt fan but if had to compromise i think the guy that mentioned the .357 Sig is on the right track ,great round better than 9mm but wont kick as much as .45, lighter too. ghp9 needs to stop drinking while on forums.

  • 101st ABN

    And, the Army gets the 9 mm. Pussies can not handle a real pistol. That is a little harsh. It is more about money, the Marines support Colt, the Army supports Beretta. Better hope the Army does not move to that new lighter rifle, the Daisy CO2 BB repeater, because that would make the Marines have to drop down to .22 long rifle at least.

  • Carry 45 to work

    Just a few points for the conversation.
    This pistol is designated "Close Quarters Battle Pistol", so extended range isn't a top consideration. +1 old vet.
    According to the MarineTimes, "The pistols will be manufactured at Colt’s plant in West Hartford, Conn."-made in the USA.
    The .45 vs. the world argument will never be settled in online forums; who better to trust than the real world experiences of the Marines?
    Finally, the pistol is contracted for the Marines' SOC, who have A LOT of confirmed kills. I think they know what they need and they deserve to be armed with what they want. I'm damned glad it's still gonna be the Colt 1911.

    • Buck Savage

      Damned right Carry45 ! You said it all in one sentence ” the pistol is contracted for the Marines &#039 SOC, who have A LOT of confirmed kills. I think they know what they need and they deserve to be armed with what they want. I&#039m damned glad it &#039s still gonna be the Colt 1911.” The Marines are still a tough outfit, and are mostly “boots on the ground” forces. So I believe they should have what they wish to carry, that’s the least we can do for them !

  • MAX

    I personally like the nine millimeter better. Better penetration at long range, excellent firearms, lighter, and the defensive loads are great. However, the +p+ fmj rounds the military uses are very anemic. For people limited to fmj ammo, the 45 is better in every way, save range and penetration. I love my 1911, and I take it as my hunting backup, but my carry pistol is a glock in 9×19. Military guys need something bigger.

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